5 things this Christian is learning from the Jehovah’s Witnesses

52 thoughts on “5 things this Christian is learning from the Jehovah’s Witnesses”

1. Great comments! I applaud your introspection. It’s not easy looking inward – sometimes it hurts. You have to have the right heart to GROW in this kind of situation because it’s too easy to whip out the Bible and pull out all the verses that seem to agree with your position. The hard thing to do is actually LEARN something in the midst of the controversy. It sounds like you have a seeker’s heart.

   I especially liked your comment about your chuch family praying for you. So right! We can’t go this alone.

   • Thank you, Nathan. (I’m glad you found this post, since I am having some trouble with Feedburner, so my subscribers were never notified about it!) I appreciate your encouragement!

2. Great thoughts, Melanie. A friend mentioned to me the other day that it seems many Christians have a greater desire to be “right” than to be “loving” and that somehow the two exclude each other. Isn’t our rightness in the love? Anyway, I was looking into the Jehovah’s translation of scripture and it appears that there were four men who sat down to write it, only one of which had a basic grasp on Hebrew and Greek. This is to say that the starting point for a discussion on scripture is already on shaky ground because the truth we claim is very different from one another. The only logical conclusion to this debate is “yes, huh”; “nah, uh”; “yes, huh”; “nah, uh”. Which, ironically enough seems to be how many debates in the church end because we’re unwilling to relinquish our rightness, or our control, so we take our ball and go to the other side of the playground. Your approach of listening, loving, being a neighbor IS the gospel and breaks that seemingly endless loop. Peace and patience to you.

   • “Isn’t our rightness in the love?” —I love that, Steve. Thanks. I’m not sure what to do with this knowledge that the JW bible is a “shaky” translation. I mean, is there a loving way to let my neighbor know that the book she believes in is, well, wrong? Should I try? Or is it enough for me to share “my” Bible with her on Saturday mornings, and hope that God speaks to her through it?

3. The MAIN difference between Jehovah’s Witnesses and most evangelicals (I’m not sure what you consider yourself – hopefully simply “Christian” :-) ) is their view that Jesus is some sort of lesser god, not THE God. So their John 1:1 reads: “…the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” Your Bible clearly reads, “and the word was God,” which is exactly what the Greek text says. If you want to get specific about it, Greek does not have an indefinite pronoun (“a” or “an”).

   Their John 8:58 reads: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” That totally obscures Jesus’ point and takes dishonest liberties with the Greek. Jesus really said, “Before Abraham was, I AM,” which is exactly what God said to Moses in Exodus 3:14 and 6:3. Those who heard Jesus on that occasion wanted to stone Him for blasphemy (John 8:59).

   Their Hebrews 1:8 reads: “But with reference to the Son: ‘God is your throne forever…'” Again, they mis-translate the Greek here, which really says, “Your throne, O GOD, is forever and ever” (quoting Psalm 45:6). The Father addressed Jesus as “God”!

   If they can see how their translation has been corrupted, perhaps they can start coming to truth, but it’s hard to teach when you are literally on different pages!

   That’s my two cents, anyway :-) I agree with the previous commenter. May you be blessed with much patience and peace.

   • I’ve been hesitant to get into the Greek with my neighbor because one of the things I want to demonstrate is that God’s Word is accessible to anyone who reads it. No seminary education is required, no professional exposition—just God’s Word and His Holy Spirit breathing life into its pages.

     Do you think God’s Spirit can breathe life into the pages of their translation? That is, if my neighbor spends the week reading the Gospel of John in her bible, can God speak to her through that? Or would He choose not to, since the JWs have dethroned Him and re-defined Him in their scriptures?

4. Hi Mel,

   Great post – love your thoughts on this! You are def right, we can’t do this type of ministering on our own, prayer support is crucial! I applaud your efforts!

   Peggy

   • Thank you, Peggy—I appreciate your support.

5. Hey Melanie,
   It’s been nearly a decade since we experienced the same thing, and here’s what happened: We asked very directly their perception of the differences in JW and Christianity. They came up with a list of several things including not celebrating birthdays, marching in parades, blood transfusions, and Jesus is not God. We set a rule that the only discussion would be on the latter, as that was the most important issue between us. They agreed. . . until it became sticky, and always wanted to drift back to those “non-essentials”. Each time, the original JW would bring back an elder or other prominent leader of the church, and each time they couldn’t get past John 10:30, where Jesus says, “I and the Father are one.” (Their answer was something along the lines of “you and I both like the Bears so we are one”….common interest kind of thing, making us one.) From there, we asked them to read verses 31, 32, and finally 33. There was no answer that they could give that would satisfy that. (Now granted, that was 10 years ago, and maybe the NWT has been changed to accommodate for that.)

   All in all, this went on for a year, and finally the original JW quit coming.

   Peace and joy in your world, Melanie.

   • This is good insight, Jim. I do get the feeling that JW’s have changed their approach, if not their beliefs. It was not until our fourth meeting that my neighbor clearly told me Jesus is “a god,” and it was not until our fifth meeting that she said he was only “a god” while he was in heaven. During the time he was on earth, she says, he was only human—a perfect human, but not a god. So far we have not had any discussion of the non-essentials you list; I’m not sure why they haven’t come up yet.

   • I know this is coming late to the party once again but somewhat curious why JW’s, including elders, were stumped as you said that is for us as simple of an explanation as any other thing since it gets asked a lot. I’m not implying you made the story up at all so I apologize if you get this from my question but reason I asked is I fell away from being a JW for years and even I, as a non practicing JW, understood the meaning of that translation. There have been many more bible scholars who also agreed who are not JW’s that believe the same thing… Jesus was referring to him and his father having the same oneness in mind or in unity, not that they were “one person or spirit”. I’ve heard just recently two people in love say they were one of the same and of one mind, does that mean they are the same person, of course not. It simply meant they were unified in thought and love and even in actions. I speak and have the same mannerisms as my father and many times I have to hear them say… boy you are your father or you’re the splitting image of your father but they say that because of us closely resembling each other as well as mannerisms.

     When you referenced 31,32, and 33 I somewhat had to chuckle since the Jews also misunderstood that scripture and were bent on stoning him for blasphemy. Although many times Jesus pointed out either God was greater than he was (John 14:28), bible shows that only the Jews thought he was making himself equal to God BECAUSE he said he was “Gods son” (John 5:18), rebuked the Devil for requesting he prove he was “Gods son” (Matt 4:3), and even the demons (Mark 1:23, 24) and Satan the Devil knows there is one God and that Jesus is his son (James 2:19).

     Another thought to consider, when you barter with someone you want something equal in return otherwise the transaction is not fair. If Jesus is God then how could a ransom from Adam be truly equal if he was not COMPLETELY dead? If only a part was dead that means no EQUAL ransom or barter, and we know God to be a God of justice. If you say he died completely then that contradicts the bible at Habakkuk 1:12 which says God does not die. If God does not lie (Num 23:19) that means his inspired word the bible must be true so he did not die/ cannot die. The ONLY way for the ransom sacrifice to be equal was for a perfect human to give up his life as a sinless person, which Jesus came down to earth to do so, perfectly, as Gods son. Unfortunately, just like many were stumbled when Jesus told them to eat his flesh and drink his blood many were stumbled about him saying he was Gods son. If those people could misunderstand scriptures do you not believe we too might also do the same sometimes?

     It was mentioned many times that JW’s “cherry pick” scriptures not reading the entire verse or chapter to get the entire mood, which yes I’m sure as imperfect people we do since I have been guilty of that and had to be corrected by JW’s and other Christians but maybe in this situation you read what you also wanted to support your belief without looking at other scriptures to back up your statement. :) Believe me I 100% LOVE that you seem to be a spiritual person. When I went in service I wasn’t there to “convert on the doorstep” contrary to what people think. I was there volunteering to encourage bible reading and find people who WANTED to learn more. I wasn’t there to debate or win an argument but spread Gods word the bible to ones who might have prayed for assistance or wanted to know more since I don’t have powers of perception to know where to find ones. So we go door to door blindly in search of such ones. Once again please do not take this as me trying to make you feel down about your belief as I learn things from non JW’s all the time including how to treat people, showing kindness, certain understanding of scriptures I never thought about, etc. It’s not just me trying “one up” you or “win”. We ALL want to be followers of God so if you were to bring something to my attention that was a correction I would also research it and make sure what I’m learning is true. Just me providing clarification why I believe my viewpoint, while different, is what I believe since it seemed you never got a clear answer. I will pray for you and please do the same as we endure to the end. :)

     • Nice to hear from you, Justasimplemind! And I appreciate your concern about not coming across as “winning” an argument. I agree that our goal here is only to explain what we each believe, where we disagree, and how we come to the conclusions we do. We’re all learning from each other!

       Since the time that I posted this blog, I have had many conversations with my neighbor about the nature of Jesus. In fact, for one of our meetings I put together a document that I thought was a pretty clear explanation of why I believe Jesus and God are two distinct beings yet one and the same being. I thought it was very logical, and I asked my neighbor if she could at least understand why I believe this, even if she didn’t agree. But she seemed appalled at that suggestion, and that disappointed me. It’s a long document, so I don’t want to recreate it here, but if you are interested, I will email you a PDF.

       You mention the idea of an “equal ransom,” suggesting that if Jesus was God, He couldn’t really die, and therefore the ransom was not actually paid. But I think “equal ransom” could be argued the other way: If Jesus were only a man, His life could be equally substituted for only one person. But Jesus paid the price for all of humanity. Wouldn’t it require more than a man to do that?

       I sincerely appreciate that your goal in going door-to-door was to encourage Bible reading. I agree that most Christians are not familiar enough with their Bibles, and we need a lot of encouragement to stay in the Word! But my neighbor once told me something that bothers me. She said that we cannot understand the Bible by just reading it, that we need books like those published by the Watchtower in order to get the real meaning of the Scriptures. Is this what most JWs believe? Or did I misunderstand my neighbor?

6. I wouldn’t point out that their translation is “wrong”, but why you believe your translation to be more accurate, highlighting the cloud of witnesses who worked on it and their knowledge of the languages, which has made it possible for you and I to understand the original meaning without knowing the languages. Every time we read scripture we’re in the process of translation because we bring our current context into the text, and to do this in isolation is where we run into troubles, often making the Bible say what we want it to say or say what it was never meant to say. No seminary required to understand and believe, but I thank God for those who have studied the languages to help me along the way.

7. A customer came into my home business last year. After writing his check on the nice soft surface of a little magazine he’d brought in with him, the Watchtower, he “started in on me.” I’m glad I had the sense to silently pray that I’d have the right things to say to him. He was pretty intent on quoting his bible verses, and he seemed to have good arguments for everything he said. It sorta made sense, but not exactly. I told him I wanted to check on some of his facts & proceeded to pull an NIV from my drawer in the desk. We looked up some of the verses he was talking about. I never did figure out what his main purpose was.
   A month or so ago, my doorbell rang on a Saturday afternoon & a black man & white woman stood there. He said, “Remember me?” and reminded me of what his business had been with me. He looked familiar & I told him so, then he said, “and we had a nice talk about our different beliefs & you surprised me by pulling your Bible out of the drawer. I was surprised that you did that & that you knew so much.” Well, I feel like I don’t know nearly enough.
   Years back, my husband’s uncle married a woman who was a Jehovah’s Witness. During a time of Nadine questioning her beliefs as she could never measure up to strict JW standards, my mother-in-law sent her a book she’d heard about on WMBI titled “Crisis of Conscience” by Raymond Franz. Raymond was one of the JW’s “anointed” few who had heavenly hope. He wrote his book after being disfellowshipped for saying JWs didn’t put their emphasis on what the Bible said. After reading his book, Nadine converted and later wrote a book herself called “The Lost Sheep of the Watchtower” dispelling many of the false teachings of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
   OK, that’s my story. Sorry it was so long.

   • That’s a great story, Judy! There are too many Christians who know too little about the Bible, and your story is an example of how our devotional habits impact our testimony. Thanks for sharing that.

     Thanks too for the resources you referenced—I’m going to check those out!

8. Hi Melanie,
   I am absolutely thrilled with your honesty and humility. Don’t be put off by individuals who discredit the NWT, as I have found it is indeed extremely acurate. Evidently you are a person who loves God’s Word. So I am sure you would be interested in knowing what one of the big differences is between the New World Translation and other versions. It involves the name of the most important personage spoken of in the Scriptures. Did you know that his personal name appears in the Bible in the original Hebrew some 7,000 times—more than any other name? What difference does it make whether we use the personal name of God or substitute it with LORD? Well, do you have any really close friends whose name you do not know? . . . If we want a personal relationship with God, knowing his name is an important start. Especially in view of what Jesus said at John 17:3, 6. (Ps. 83:18) Wolfgang Feneberg comments in the Jesuit magazine Entschluss/Offen (April 1985): “He [Jesus] did not withhold his father’s name YHWH from us, but he entrusted us with it. It is otherwise inexplicable why the first petition of the Lord’s Prayer should read: ‘May your name be sanctified!’” Feneberg further notes that “in pre-Christian manuscripts for Greek-speaking Jews, God’s name was not paraphrased with kýrios [Lord], but was written in the tetragram form [YHWH] in Hebrew or archaic Hebrew characters. . . . We find recollections of the name in the writings of the Church Fathers; but they are not interested in it. By translating this name kýrios (Lord), the Church Fathers were more interested in attributing the grandeur of the kýrios to Jesus Christ.” The New World Translation restores the name to the text of the Bible wherever there is sound, scholarly reason to do so. The more you research, Melanie, the more you will be impressed with the honesty and scholarly thoroughness of the selfless individuals who anonamously provided this great translation.
   Keep up your studies.. you are a real gem!

   • Thank you, Steve. My neighbor and I have touched on the topic of Jehovah’s name, though not in depth. When we were studying the book of John, I asked her about John 8:58, where Jesus says, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!” I have always understood that Jesus was specifically using the same name that Jehovah used in Exodus 3:14 when Moses asked for his name— “I AM WHO I AM.” I interpret that to mean Jesus believes He is God, the same God of the Old Testament. But my neighbor’s bible has changed John 8:58 to read, “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been,” which has a completely different meaning. I can’t help feeling that it is the NWT that has removed an important reference to Jehovah’s personal name!

9. This is a well-written post. If I may, let me comment on each of the 5 things learned, from a JW standpoint.

   #1) Largely answered by your point #2….it’s a little hard to tell. “Just an impression,” as you put it. However, I appreciate your frank acknowledgment that it’s an easy manner to fall into, and you have done so yourself. Your reflection moves you to ponder how you can interact with persons differently. They, too, are aware of the human tendency to become impersonal, and they too, may ponder over how to modify their approach. Depends on the individual.

   #2) Generally people have some ulterior motives to anything they do. It’s the human condition. And as you say, it’s a little hard to tell, even when it is with yourself. I doubt the change of race means anything. JWs frequently visit with different companions. They just take whoever is available.

   #3) Agree completely. It is hard to tell what’s genuine and what’s Bible-based. And the solution is to examine one’s Bible.

   #4) You are very gracious. They do know the Bible well. Their meetings are set up that way. To varying degrees, they are all Bible studies, and they encourage Bible study. But I don’t understand your last sentence. They are examining God’s Word, studying, explaining it, so that one doesn’t need to “defend it” when they visit. We’re all invited to do as did the Boreans of Acts 17:11, who “most heartily welcomed the message and made a daily study of the Scriptures, whether these things were so.”

   #5) Again, it’s the nature of people. We reinforce each other. As you find “strength in numbers,” so do we.

   “a little help?”) “is their danger of being converted” There’s nothing sinister or threatening about studying the Bible. If it happens, (being converted) it will be because you decide they are right in their overall view of God’s word. If, upon examination, you decide they are wrong, you will not be converted.

   Several comments which gravitate upon Jesus identity and/or the validity of the New World Translation.) This post may help:

   http://tinyurl.com/pnyz36

   • Hi tom, I just found your comment in my spam filter—sorry about that! I appreciate the points you are making.

     To your point #4: Probably my sense of defensiveness comes from the fact that my neighbor is in fact trying to show me that I am wrong. For me, it is very important to believe that Jesus is God. So when she explains—sometimes gently, sometimes a little patronizingly—that Jesus is “a god” or a perfect man, my initial reaction is to want to argue with that. But I’m learning to let the Bible speak for itself.

     Sometimes it seems that my neighbor is more dependent on other books to explain what the Bible says, than she is on the Bible itself. This morning when we met, she brought a small book of “answers to common arguments,” and we read from that. And the back of her bible has a lot of additional information that she seems to refer to a lot during our conversations. I suppose I appreciate all the additional research, but sometimes it seems like these theologians make the Bible more complicated than it is. I’m usually more confused than enlightened after reading what they’ve written!

     • It does seem at times that there is so much that can be said about the Bible that one can be overwhelmed.

       I can assure you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses that what is being shared with you is being done out of love and not some secret motive. The goal of starting bible studies is to benefit the person so they can see for themselves why the scene of this world is the way it is and where it is all headed. People have a lot of question that are not being answer.

       The picture of our “Field Service Report” is not capturing any information about who we talk to in our ministry. It is simple a record management from for us to record how much time we spend in the ministry on any given day. It is a personal record.

       As Jehovah’s Witnesses, we dedicate our lives to doing Jehovah’s will. As such, we follow the teachings of his Son, Jesus, as well as the rest of the Bible. Jesus gave specific instruction for the preaching and teaching of his Fathers word, not his. We get our commission from Matthew 28:19, 20.

       The reason why Jesus could give this command at Matthew 28:19,20 is because up until then, he did not have the authority. After Jesus was resurrected he was given that authority (Matthew28:19, 20). Who do you think had the power and almightiness to grant Jesus this kind of authority?

10. I know many endeavor to connect the expression with Exodus 3:14, where, according to a lot of renderings, God refers to himself by the title “I Am.” Remember, though, the OT was originally written in Hebrew and the NT in Greek. However, in the NWT the latter part of John 8:58 reads: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” (The same idea though, is conveyed by the wording in AT, Mo, CBW, and SE.)
    Which rendering agrees with the context? The question of the Jews (verse 57) to which Jesus was replying had to do with AGE, not identity. Jesus’ reply logically dealt with his age, the length of his prehuman existence. Attempting to identify Jesus with Jehovah, some say that the Greek – ἐγὼ εἰμί (e‧go′ ei‧mi′) is the equivalent of the Hebrew expression ʼani′ huʼ, “I am he,” which is used by God. However, it is to be noted that this Hebrew expression is also used by man.—See 1Ch 21:17 .
    Interestingly, no effort is ever made to apply e‧go′ ei‧mi′ as a title to the holy spirit.
    Examples of the same syntax are found in Lu 2:48; 13:7; 15:29; Joh 5:6; 14:9; 15:27; Ac 15:21; 2Co 12:19; 1Jo 3:8.
    Says A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, by A. T. Robertson: “The verb [ei‧mi′] . . . Sometimes it does express existence as a predicate like any other verb, as in [e‧go′ ei‧mi′] John. 8:58
    All we are really seeking, Melanie, is to worship our heavenly father in “spirit and in truth.. for indeed the father is looking for suchlike ones” John 4:23,24. Keep up the search.

    • I disagree that the question the Jews were asking Jesus had to do with age rather than identity. In fact, it seems to me that Jesus was using age to PROVE His identity! He was claiming to be eternally existent God, not merely a perfect man. The Jews knew exactly what He was claiming—they considered it blasphemy.

      • I think you are absolutely right, Melanie.

        Steve, I looked up every single passage you quoted where you said “the same syntax is found.” Not a single one of them had the same syntax (ego eimi). Maybe I am misunderstanding your point?

        There ARE other places in the NT where the same syntax is found. “I am” is one of Jesus’ favorite sayings in John’s gospel. “I am…the bread of life, the light of the world, the way, the truth, the life, the good shepherd, the door of the sheep…” But there are a few places where Jesus simply said, “I am” and left it at that. The Jews knew exactly what He was saying!

11. Nathan you said you looked up every single passage quoted where “the same syntax is found.” Not a single one of them had the same syntax (ego eimi). You said “Maybe I am misunderstanding your point?”
    Definition: (1) The study of the rules that govern the ways words combine to form phrases, clauses, and sentences. (2) The arrangement of words in a sentence. Examples of the same syntax – not the same words – are found in Lu 2:48; 13:7; 15:29; Joh 5:6; 14:9; 15:27; Ac 15:21; 2Co 12:19; 1Jo 3:8. This proves our passage is of a common grammatical structure.
    Did you check the point in 1st Chron. 21:17 ? “Was it not I that said to make a numbering of the people, and is it not I* that have sinned and have unquestionably done bad? Literally it reads: “and I am he.” Heb., wa‧ʼani-huʼ′; Greek, e‧go′ ei‧mi′. The expression ʼani′ huʼ, “I am he,” is used here by a man, David. Elsewhere, as we know, this expression is used by God.
    The main point being made here is that the Hebrew and Greek expressions contain no convincing evidence that they are particularly associated with a mystical trinitarian link between the “Almighty” “Creator” Jehovah, and his “Only (directly) begotten” “Firstborn” “Master worker” “Mighty God” Beloved Son – The Word – who later became our wonderful Ransomer – Jesus (Christ, Messiah) -Isa 9:6 -Prov. 8:22,30
    Never is Jesus ever spoken of as ALMIGHTY – That title is only ever is given to Jehovah.
    Many sincere people sing hymns that praise the NAME of our God, and yet sadly their very own bible replaces it with LORD some 7000 times! Imagine if Melanie writes a book destined to become famous, and gives it to a translator, only to have her name Melanie replaced with WOMAN in capital letters every time it occurs… An outrage… and yet that is exactly what the majority of translators have done with Jehovah’s precious name replacing it with “LORD”! One can only wonder whether their motive is to obscure the clear difference between him and his dear son, in order to back up a doctrine that was explicitly defined in the Athanasian creed of the 4th century by none other than the Roman Church. I love the way God feels about his precious name at Malachi 3:16-18 – At that time those in fear of Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance began to be written up before him for those in fear of Jehovah and for those thinking upon his name. And they will certainly become mine, Jehovah of armies has said, at the day when I am producing a special property. Vs 18 is also very eye opening. Anyway, thats all. I wish you all the best in your personal search for the truth, and building the best relationship ever.

    • Steve, I can’t really contribute to what you and Nathan are saying about Greek and Hebrew syntax, but I will add a comment to the point you make in your last paragraph. I’m not sure that using “LORD” to reference God is equivalent to using “WOMAN” to reference me. As I understand it, “Lord” is a title, not just a noun. So its use in Scripture is more equivalent to addressing me as “Doctor” or “Professor” or “Your Honor,” if I had earned such a title. Those titles do not replace someone’s name; they just indicate acknowledgement and respect for someone’s position.

      • Point taken – I probably should have used one of the more honourble titles to illustrate my point. However some Bibles use “O Eternal” or GOD in capitals or “Soveriegn” and a host of other substitute titles.
        The main thing we need to ponder – Do translators have the RIGHT to use ANY substitutute for the Divine name? Regardless of their “reasons” if the tetragram was there originally, they are really hiding it rather than hallowing it, and are in grave danger of contravening the explicit instructions of Revelation 22:18,19.
        This is my last post – all the best in your studies.

        • Steve, I see how I was mistaken on what you were trying to point out with the syntax of those Scriptures. I guess if I used words right I’d understand right :-)

          My main point is that the Greek “ego eimi” is found in many places in John. “I am the bread of life” (6:35, 41, 48, 51). “…where I am you cannot come” (7:34, 36). “I am the light of the world” (8:12). “I am from the realms above” (8:23). These are just a few of the many where “ego eimi” was translated (correctly) as “I am.” So why is it not translated that way in 8:58?

          It’s interesting, speaking of syntax, that 8:24 has almost exactly the same syntax: “If you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.” The term “he” is supplied in that verse. Literally it reads “If you do not believe that I am…” John 8:28 is the same, literally, “When once you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am.”

          With reference to the NAME of God, I agree with you to a large extent. I teach His name to my students. However, the apostles wrote the New Testament books by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. They wrote in the Greek language. And they never once make direct reference to His name. You cannot find YHWH in any of the Greek manuscripts. So, if the Holy Spirit was content to call Him “Lord” (see Matthew 22:37 for example), I am too. The NWT substitutes the word “Jehovah” for the Greek word kurion (“lord, master”). But the Holy Spirit said kurion. Let’s not be changing the New Testament to say what we think it ought to say!

          • Nathan, thanks for addressing the points Steve was raising—you two have deepened my knowledge of the Bible, and you’ve kept the conversation very respectful. I appreciate both the content and the tone of what you’ve shared. It’s been an education! I know Nathan said he wasn’t going to post anymore, but I hope he changes his mind. I would like to hear his response.

12. They believe that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 and that the last days began at that time.

13. In regard to God’s name, it would be interesting to find out what they think of Isaiah 66:5. Do they excommunicate brothers by reason of God’s name and are there any other religions that do this?

    Ask them to show you the announcement made when excommunicating a brother and then compare it to Romans 9:25-26.

    It will raise some eyebrows, perhaps even your own.

14. I think people are putting to much emphasis on the term “I am” in relation to Jesus being Jehovah, instead of Jesus own words identifying who he himself said he was. This term “I am” is used by many, but does not denote a claim of divinity or being God. Look how the KJV identifies Michael the arch Angel as “I am”

    (Daniel 10:14)”Now I AM come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision [is] for [many] days.”

    Does this now mean that Michael the arch Angel is God? The statement “I am” means” to exist” Yo will find many in scriptures saying the words “I am”

    Now is there ever a statement by Jesus in the bible were he himself says “I am God” now let’s look at exactly what Jesus said.

    (John 13:16)Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

    Jesus said here that the one that is SENT FOURTH is not greater than the one who sent him. Now compare that to John 17:3

    (John 17:3)And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent .

    Who did God SEND? Therefore who did JESUS say was greater? So what would that make Jesus in relation to God? Compare that to the answer he gave the women who asked Jesus that her two sons sit down, one at his right hand and one at his left hand in his kingdom.

    (Matthew 20:23)He told them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right and at my left is not mine to give. Rather, it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

    Think about it, why is Jesus always subject to the father, even AFTER his resurrection.

    (John 20:17)Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

    Even after Jesus is resurrected he the Father “MY GOD”

    Christ means “Anointed” the terms are interchangeable. Those who are anointed by God are chosen, for a special duty or task. Now with this understanding use the the term “Christ” instead of “anointed” in
    Hebrews 1:9

    (Hebrews 1:9)You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.
    So God, your God, has anointed/MADE YOU CHRIST you over your companions with the oil of rejoicing.”

    • Emil, you have listed a lot of Scriptures that indicate Jesus and the Father are distinct persons. Because those verses are in the Bible, I know they are true, and I don’t disagree with them.

      But there are other verses in the Bible that indicate Jesus and the Father are the same (many of them mentioned in previous comments). And because they’re in the Bible, I know those are true too.

      If I’m going to believe the whole Bible, I have to believe:
      -Jesus is the Son of God (Mark 1:1)
      -Jesus is the Son of Man (Matthew 8:20)
      -The Son and the Father are one (John 10:30)
      -There are some things the Son didn’t know (Matthew 24:36)
      -Jesus shared God’s nature and was equal to God but made Himself human (Philippians 2:5-7)
      -People wanted to kill Jesus because He claimed to be God (John 10:33)
      -God raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:32)
      -Jesus raised Himself from the dead (Acts 17:3)

      If I believe the Bible, then somehow I have to believe ALL of the above.

15. To claim to be the Son of God is not claiming to be God’s equal. To explain further consider these scriptures:

    (Genesis 6:1,2) When humankind began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, the Sons of God saw that the daughters of humankind were beautiful. Thus they took wives for themselves from any they chose.

    (Job 38:7) when the morning stars sang in chorus,
    and all the Sons of God shouted for joy?

    Are these “Sons of God” equal to God, are they also Gods? What exactly are “Sons of God” these scriptures are referring to?

    Look at some of the Bible translations of Psalms 8:5:

    (Psalms 8:5)
    NET© 8:5 and make them a little less than the heavenly beings? 1 You grant mankind 2 honor and majesty; 3
    NIV© 8:5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honour.
    NASB© 8:5 Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!
    ESV© 8:5 Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor.
    NLT© 8:5 Yet you made them only a little lower than Godd and crowned theme with glory and honor.
    MSG© 8:5 Yet we’ve so narrowly missed being gods, bright with Eden’s dawn light.
    BBE© 8:5 For you have made him only a little lower than the gods, crowning him with glory and honour.
    NKJV© 8:5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels, And You have crowned him with glory and honor.
    NRSV© 8:5 Yet you have made them a little lower than God, and crowned them with glory and honor.
    KJV© 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

    Heavenly beings/God/Gods/Angles

    So are we to believe Angels are God? Or are they “GODLIKE” because they are spirit beings and share Gods nature? Is this why these bible translations are translated such, some as God, gods, and angels?

    Psalms 8:5 gives you insight into Hebrews 1:9 of how Jesus was chosen, anointed, or made Christ over his companions. So who was Jesus’ companions? Who else had the potential or the prospect to become Christ?

    (Hebrews 1:9)You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.
    So God, your God, has anointed you over your companions with the oil of rejoicing.

    Also consider JESUS’ words at John 10:36 in response to his accusers:

    (John 10:36) do you say about the one whom the Father set apart and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

    Are some not doing today what the Jewish leaders did and say Jesus was God, when Jesus said he is the Son of God?

    If there are things the Son does not know that the Father does, does this show equality or subjection?(Matthew 24:36)

    Notice also how Jesus stated that his apostles will be one JUST AS He and the Father are one:

    John 17:21
    that they will all be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you. I pray that they will be in us, so that the world will believe that you sent me.

    Notice, he says “they will be one ‘JUST AS’ SO what kind of one was Jesus referring to in regards to them?

    What did Genesis 2:24 mean when it says the “two will become one flesh?”

    (Genesis 2:24) Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

16. Emil,

    Can you say with Thomas, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28)? That was not an expletive, that was a confession!

    Do you worship Jesus as the disciples did (Matt. 14:33; Luke 24:52)? We are not to engage in angel worship (Col. 2:18), but the angels worship Jesus (Heb. 1:6)!

    You asked about Jesus’ companions (Heb. 1:9 quoting Psalm 45:6-7). He was the companion of MEN, which is one of the main points of Hebrews (Heb. 2:14-18; 4:14-16). He was exalted among His fellows because He suffered in perfect obedience.

    Hebrews 1-2 says Jesus is far above the angels. He is not an angel. There is no scripture which indicates He ever WAS an angel. There ARE scriptures which make Him “the exact representation of [the Father’s] nature” (Hebrews 1:3).

    I realize the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ doctrine is shaken somewhat if Jesus really is God. I’m not sure what all would come down. But Jesus said, “If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.” Think about it. Are you holding on to a teaching of men or of God? Are you truly listening to the words of Jesus (“He who has ears to hear, let him hear”), or are you listening to the Watchtower Society? I pray that you really consider!

    • Nathan
      Probably have moved on a long time ago about this but just wanted to point out in addition the scripture is Thomas referring to two people in a moment of unbridled joy! Just versus earlier in 21 it mentions Jesus stating “Just as the Father has sent me forth…” Then again in 25 it says the disciples told Thomas they had seen “the Lord”. To close out that chapter in 20:31 it says these things were written so ones would know Jesus was Gods son.

      No doubt this scripture has led many to believe that Thomas was calling Jesus God but as a disciple Thomas KNEW the difference. Thomas had been taught the correct teachings directly from Jesus. He many times no doubt heard Jesus talk about his loving Father, his purpose for being on earth. Picture it if you will Thomas sitting there and in walks Jesus who he knew had died and not only standing there but with holes in his hands and cut in his body from the spear, no doubt Thomas would have been astonished! It would have been understandable for Thomas to be lost for words, I would have, but he cried out MY LORD AND MY GOD! Thomas was giving honor and respect to not only the man he knew to be Gods son but also God who raised him so that his doubts immediately went away.

      This response has come two years down the road but by chance hope you read it and maybe even someone else that can benefit from this. This is not be trying to act superior, just a fellow bible student who also like you wants to get to the truth of specific scriptures. Pray for me as I pray for all ones who seek to serve Jehovah God.

      • Hi Justasimplemind,

        This discussion about the humanity and divinity of Christ has been going on since the first and second centuries. There were some who taught that Christ (Messiah) had not come in the flesh. The apostle John soundly condemned that teaching (2 John 7-11). In history, we read about a teaching called Docetism, which teaches Christ only APPEARED to be human–He was really totally divine.

        On the flip side, later there was a man named Arius (circa 250-336) who did not believe in the full divinity of Christ. He evidently believed there was a time when God was not a Father…a time before He had a Son…and that the Son did not always exist. He believed Jesus had a beginning and was a created being.

        So the Jehovah’s Witnesses rest on an ancient tradition in that sense.

        But I guess I fall in with what has been considered “orthadox Christianity” throughout the centuries, which has marked both of the above teachings as heresies. In the Nicene Creed (AD 325), we read: “We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.”

        Not that a human creed makes or breaks truth, but it was the general, orthodox consensus at the time, and has continued to be the consensus of orthodox Christianity up until today, with good reason and with much Scriptural support.

        Some of the clearest Scriptures I know which speak to the divinity of Christ are as follows:

        2 Pet. 1:1 – “To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.”

        Titus 2:13 – “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus”

        Heb. 1:3 – “He is the radiance of His Glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.”

        Heb. 1:8 – “But of the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever…'”

        Heb. 1:10 – “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands” (speaking of Jesus)

        Phil. 2:6-7 – “…who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.”

        In Mark 2 Jesus said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” The response of the nearby scribes was, “He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?” I believe they were absolutely right. Who can forgive sins except the one against whom the sin has been committed? When Jesus said, “Your sins are forgiven,” He was saying, “Your sins were committed against Me, I have a right to forgive them, and I have the power to forgive them.”

        Well, those are just a few verses we could discuss. Maybe you can show me how you deal with these in your own understanding and study.

        May God be praised in all things,
        Nathan

17. In Isaiah we see the many title are bestowed unto the coming Messiah.

    (Isaiah 9:6) For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us. He shoulders responsibility and is called: Extraordinary Strategist, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Mighty God being one of titles that the messiah would inherent. Isaiah wrote this prophecy. Do you believe that Isaiah and the ancient Israelites believed that YHVH would be the coming messiah? If they did then why did the Jewish leaders condemn Jesus saying that he was making himself equal to God?

    Did Joshua engage in Angel worship?

    (Joshua 5:14,15)He answered, “Truly I am the commander of the Lord’s army. Now I have arrived!” Joshua bowed down with his face to the ground and asked, “What does my master want to say to his servant?” The commander of the Lord’s army answered Joshua, “Remove your sandals from your feet, because the place where you stand is holy.” Joshua did so.

    Did Abraham engage in Angel worship?

    (Genesis 18;2) Abraham looked up and saw three men standing across from him. When he saw them he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

    But when John did this he was corrected:

    (Revelation 22: 8,9) I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things, and when I heard and saw them, I threw myself down to worship at the feet of the angel who was showing them to me. But he said to me, “Do not do this! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets, and with those who obey the words of this book. Worship God!”But he said to me, “Do not do this! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets, and with those who obey the words of this book. Worship God!”

    Why what was the difference between the three situations?

    Is human worship accepted by God?

    (1 Kings 1:23) The king was told, “Nathan the prophet is here.” Nathan entered and bowed before the king with his face to the floor, Nathan said, “My master, O king, did you announce, ‘Adonijah will be king after me; he will sit on my throne’?

    Is Nathan the Prophet of YHVH worshiping a man? Think about all this….

    If Jesus companions were men how then is he made lower than men if he was a man. The scriptures say he was made lower than angles, not men.

    (Psalms 8:5) For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

    (Hebrews 2: 9) but we see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by God’s grace he would experience death on behalf of everyone

    So if Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, who than were his companions at Hebrews 1:9?

    Who made him lower than the angles? Likewise who exalted him, WHO did Jesus suffer in perfect obedience to, himself?

    Can God be exalted? Can God suffer in perfect obedience? If so to who would God suffer in perfect obedience to?

    How is Jesus exalted above the Angles and who exalted him? The scriptures tells us here:

    (Philippians 2:9-11)As a result God exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus
    every knee will bow – in heaven and on earth and under the earth –
    and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

    If you are representing someone are you the very person you are representing? Even if you are a perfect representation?

    (Hebrews 1:3)The Son is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word, and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

    If you are claiming by Jesus representing God, he therefor is God, why then is Jesus still then sitting at God’s right hand, if he is indeed God?

    Please consider these things.

18. The difference between those who bowed low before men and angels and passages such as Rev. 22:8, 9 (John worshiped the angel) and Acts 10:25-26 (Cornelius worshiped Peter) is that the OT verses you quoted were not concerned with worship. They were merely bowing out of great respect. I bow to my sensei and other martial arts students because I respect them. It’s traditional. It has nothing to do with worship. But the Revelation and Acts passages I just mentioned specifically point out they were worshiping.

    My point is that Jesus accepted the worship of His disciples.

    I’m not completely sure I understand where you’re coming from, Emil. Are you saying that Jesus was an angel at some point?

19. Exactly, out of respect, reverence. This is the meaning of the Greek word pros-koo-neh’-o which is translated as worshiped, in some bibles.

    pros-koo-neh’-o – to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence 2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence 3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication 3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank 3a1) to the Jewish high priests 3a2) to God 3a3) to Christ 3a4) to heavenly beings 3a5) to demons

    Worship is not even in the definition of the word.

    And Yes, I am saying that Jesus is an angel.

20. Emil,

    That’s a funny comment you made: “Worship is not even in the definition of the word.”

    I’m looking in your translation (NWT) in Matthew 4:10. It says, “Then Jesus said to him: ‘Go away, Satan! For it is written, “It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.”‘”

    The word for “worship” in Matthew 4:10 is proskuneo, EXACTLY the same word used previously in Matthew:

    Mt 2:2 “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him.”
    Mt 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, “Go and make careful search for the Child; and when you have found [Him,] report to me, that I too may come and worship Him.”
    Mt 2:11 And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh.

    But your NWT has “do obeisance” in those three verses. It softens the idea of worship, doesn’t it? Yet it’s the same word.

    So don’t tell me proskuneo does not contain the idea of “worship” in it when your own Bible translates it as worship! Other places in the NWT where proskuneo is translated as worship include Jn 4:20-24; 12:20; Acts 7:43; 8:27; and 1 Cor. 14:25 among others.

    So, how did your translators decide when to use the word “worship” and when to use the phrase “do obeisance”? Other versions are much more consistent in their translations.

21. Hey Emil,

    I realize my last comment sounds a bit harsh. I apologize for that. I don’t want to assume that you are dishonest with Scripture. I do believe the translators of the NWT bible WERE dishonest in their translations. They were not content to use the Greek words in a consistent fashion, but they translated many things a certain way because it agreed with their philosophical understanding of Scripture. What we all should do is try to understand Scripture first and form our teachings based upon the actual words. There are many translations of the Bible out there, and there are several which have been faithful to the original text.

    Please accept my apology for the harshness! I don’t want to be harsh towards you, but I do not have much patience with folks who intentionally misconstrue Biblical words (i.e. the translators of the NWT).

22. Yes, it is. Notice what Jesus goes on to say after the translated word of “worship”:

    (Matthew 4:10) Then Jesus said to him, “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘You are to worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’”

    Is a part of your worship and serving God being obedient to him, and to show reverence to God, “proskuneo”? Notice Jesus did not reference himself to be worshiped and served but ONLY to God was these things due.

    So why did Jesus not tell Satan worship was due to Jesus/himself ONLY. Which would also solidify your point of the disciples and others worshiping him? Why then did he differ to God?

    Again, when YHVH prophet Nathan shows “shaw-khaw” to the King was he worshiping the King?

    (1 Kings 1:23) The king was told, “Nathan the prophet is here.” Nathan entered and (bowed/shaw-khaw) before the king with his face to the floor, Nathan said, “My master, O king, did you announce, ‘Adonijah will be king after me; he will sit on my throne’?

    This is the meaning of the Hebrew word shaw-khaw’

    shaw-khaw’ – 1) to bow down 1a) (Qal) to bow down 1b) (Hiphil) to depress (fig) 1c) (Hithpael) 1c1) to bow down, prostrate oneself 1c1a) before superior in homage 1c1b) before God in worship 1c1c) before false gods 1c1d) before angel

    So what the Prophet Nathan worshiping a man or not? Is this type of behavior acceptable to God?

    Joshua did the same to an Angel, remember angel worship is forbidden:

    (Joshua 5:14,15)He answered, “Truly I am the commander of the Lord’s army. Now I have arrived!” Joshua (bowed/shaw-khaw’) down with his face to the ground and asked, “What does my master want to say to his servant?” The commander of the Lord’s army answered Joshua, “Remove your sandals from your feet, because the place where you stand is holy.” Joshua did so.

    Why was Joshua and Nathan not reproved for worshiping angels and men?

    Why is it you say these worshiped Jesus but when it is done elsewhere in the bible you say it is done out of respect? How did you decide when was it done in worship and when it is done out of respect?

23. No apology needed, I know how sensitive these talks can become. :)

24. Nathan and Emil, again I can’t really speak to the translations/languages you’re referencing, but I do think there is a difference between “bowing” and “worship.” Bowing is one of the ways you might show worship, but it is not the only way, and it may also be used to show other things (respect, obedience, etc.). So do both pros-koo-neh’-o and shaw-khaw refer only to the act of bowing? Do neither of them refer to the attitude of worship?

25. Agreed Melanie, is “bowing” all that is required for people to worship God? Bowing is a part of worship, but simply bowing does not mean in itself that worship is being given.

    Like you mention “attitude” is very much evolved in the act as well. this is seen in the scriptures of how John bowed before the angel with the thought or idea in mind of giving worship to the angel, as John acknowledges and was rebuked for it.

    (Revelation 22: 8,9) I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things, and when I heard and saw them, I threw myself down to worship at the feet of the angel who was showing them to me. But he said to me, “Do not do this! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets, and with those who obey the words of this book. Worship God!”But he said to me, “Do not do this! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets, and with those who obey the words of this book. Worship God!”

    Neither pros-koo-neh’-o or shaw-khaw reflect the attitude only the act.

26. I highly recommend the book mentioned by Judy in an earlier comment— Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz. I downloaded a copy of this 450-page book, and I’ve read about half of it so far. Since Mr. Franz was a member of the JW Governing Body, he has unique insight into how “biblical” this religion really is.

27. If Jesus is GOD,can angels tell him what to do and when to do it? Simple answer YES or NO

    • If Jesus is not God, should angels be worshipping him? (By the way, you kind of stifle participation when you make demands like, “Simple answer YES or NO.” Try to relax a little and enjoy the exchange of views. It’s a conversation.)

28. Your style is so unique compared to other people I have read stuff from.
    Many thanks for posting when you have the opportunity, Guess I’ll just book
    mark this web site.

    • Thank you, edmangoodrich. I also looked at the Daily Gratitude blog post you link to—very interesting. Thank you for sharing it.

29. Jesus said it best in Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of this prophecy of this book. And adds anything to them, God will add to them the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life. So be careful what your reading because some religions have clearly done this to our Holy Bible. And will pay for it one day soon.

    • That’s a good reminder, Kenny. For all of us. I know I’ve been guilty of adding my own perspective and culture when I read the Bible, and that can lead me to interpret to mean something it wasn’t meant to. It helps to read large sections of the Bible at a time so the context is clearer. And it helps to find a trustworthy translation, rather than something based on the thoughts of three or four people with little knowledge of ancient culture and languages.

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